Crime and Punishment Prison and Criminal Justice

My OpEd in Support of David Gilbert

This piece ran in the September 12, 2021 Times Union, and they graciously agreed to let me republish it on my own website. David goes up for his first-ever Parole Board hearing on September 20, 2021.


I am one of thousands of New Yorkers who support the release of David Gilbert from prison for his role in the failed Brinks robbery in 1981. I’m one of hundreds of people who have met and corresponded with him during his 40 years of incarceration.

But in many ways, I have more in common with family members of the victims of David Gilbert’s crime than with him. My brother was 20 years old and on active duty in the US Army in Germany in 1985 when he was executed by the Red Army Faction, a leftist political group who had “declared war” on the United States.

Although the details are different, the circumstances of my brother’s death are painfully similar to the deaths that David Gilbert was responsible for. As in the Brinks robbery, three people—none of whom were intentional targets of the planners—died violent deaths in circumstances that produced terror and injury to many others. These crimes are separated by years and thousands of miles, but they share some unique qualities.

In 2018, as part of my lifelong process of healing from the loss of my brother, and because David was in his own lifelong process of grappling with the impacts of his actions, we corresponded and agreed to meet. In his decades of incarceration, David had never spoken to someone whose experience so closely mirrored those of the families of the victims of the Brinks robbery.

I didn’t know what to expect when I went inside the prison to sit across a table from David. I was nervous, so I brought a trusted person with me. I found that David was thoughtful and willing to answer all my direct and painful questions about that day and his role in it. He asked me questions to understand my profound loss and what my family had experienced in the aftermath of my brother’s violent death.

From there, I went on to visit David a number of times pre-COVID. We talked about many things: our children and other family members, current events, books we’ve read. But every visit at some point would turn to our individual experiences with murder. We talked every time about the deaths from the Brinks robbery and he never shied away. He has accepted responsibility for his actions and lives with the permanent, damaging impact they have had on others. For me, David has a unique empathy for the loss of my brother that few people have. He is part of my community of support, of my lifelong journey to live with the permanent loss of my brother for someone else’s “revolution.”

As someone who still grieves my own loss deeply, I have to ask what purpose is served by keeping David Gilbert incarcerated. There’s no indication that he would attempt to harm anyone. He has recognized that his actions caused losses that are deep and permanent. His only interest is in living peacefully and in any possible repair he might make, whether directly or indirectly. While incarcerated, he has participated in countless volunteer opportunities to help other incarcerated people prepare for their return to their families and communities.

There are many ways my life is influenced by the sacrifice of my brother, who was killed on active duty because of what that represented to the people who killed him. My brother lost his life in defense of our way of life. Like my brother, who was willing to die for what he believed, I hold a deep commitment to people’s individual liberties, even in the toughest circumstances. I believe incarcerating someone must only be done for public safety. It cannot be done to send a political message, or to punish an individual just for the sake of punishment.

If David Gilbert posed a direct threat to anyone, I would not support his release. But David poses no threat to public safety. His recent clemency allows him to go before a parole board. That board should base their decision on their assessment of any risk he poses if released, not a review of the heinous and unchangeable nature of his crime.

The time has come for David Gilbert to live his life outside prison walls. I look forward to when he and I can sit at a kitchen table to continue our dialogues and together find ways to further heal and repair ourselves and our communities.


This OpEd is also on the Times Union website. Photo of David Gilbert from Friends of David Gilbert.

Crime and Punishment Kathleen Talking News Prison and Criminal Justice

My Comments for Crime Victim’s Rights Week 2021

I was invited to participate at a media event in support of New York’s Fair and Timely Parole Act and the Elder Parole Bill as part of a 2021 Crime Victim’s Rights Week event on April 22, 2021. I was in an amazing lineup of speakers (mostly other women of color!) who broke down why so many of us who are survivors of violence want to see these laws pass.

Since this was for Crime Victim’s Rights Week and I knew legislators would be part of the event, I wanted to highlight their role in allocating money to resources that can support families affected by murder.

You can watch a recording of the full online press conference here. Here are my comments as I originally wrote them.

Thank you for including me today. I was born and raised in New York City, and when I was in between my sophomore and junior year at Stuyvesant High School in 1985, my brother was murdered, shot in the head at close range.

It was not here in New York City and I’m not going to go into all the details right now, except to say that eventually two people served sentences of 18 and 21 years for the crimes connected to his murder.

To describe it as a devastating loss to my family isn’t even enough. We were broken, and my mother was never the same again.

My brother, who was 20 years old when he was killed, lost the whole life he had ahead of him.

My whole adulthood I’ve been talking and listening to other family members of murder victims.

And, there’s one concern shared by most family members I have ever met: we want to support each other and we want there to be fewer families going through what we’ve gone through. We all generally agree that we should do anything and everything to prevent as many murders as possible.

Now, we don’t all agree about how to prevent violence, but we agree that it’s worth doing. On a basic level, I think it starts with making rational decisions about what situations put people at risk of violence and what interventions reduce violence in our homes and communities.

For decades, we’ve been fed a diet of easy answers: more cops, more jail beds, more prisons, more punishment. But we know that these things don’t equal safety. For my family, the long sentences people received for my brother’s murder didn’t translate to healing or support for our lives without my brother.

Now I will say that since the 1980’s we’ve seen more spending on survivor services, but it’s never matched the sort of money I’ve seen spent on punishment. Punishment gets the big bucks, then survivor services get the leftovers. I was on the staff and the board of a domestic violence program for years and we were always watching our pennies. There just isn’t enough investment in survivor services and there can’t be when we put them in line after punishment.

It comes down to being realistic about what survivors need and what will actually make a difference to serve survivors and prevent more violence.

When we’re talking about Elder Parole, and Fair and Timely Parole, these bills are about realistic assessments for safety. It’s about making decisions about why we’re keeping people in prison based on the present, not the past. It’s about fairness to the individual people involved, and I hate to put it in these terms, but it’s also going to save money. Money that then can be going to communities for prevention interventions and for survivor services that people need.

Before the murder of my brother, I would have said “lock ’em up and throw away the key.” But that was before I actually had to go through the experience of being in a family broken apart by murder, where most of my family members struggled to ever get support.

Now I see that the “lock em up” attitude means throwing away people, and throwing away money that we need for resources for survivors of serious and violent crime. I am one of the growing number of family members of murder victims who want systems that invest in real safety and support for our families, not just unending punishment.

We’re going to keep showing up, demanding real action for safety, and not just unending systems of punishment. Today, that means standing up for the Fair and Timely Parole Bill and the Elder Parole bill, and I hope both those bills pass in this session.

Thank you,

April 22, 2021

I included a screenshot of me Zooming into the press conference (with my COVID-hair) and behind me is a picture of my brother as a young boy. He and other members of my family are always with me in spirit as I speak up for new ways of defining justice and prioritizing healing.

You can join other events in support of Fair and Timely Parole or Elder Parole, this campaign is fierce and ongoing. I sincerely hope that 2021 is the year we win these changes so incarcerated folks can get home to their families, and we can start allocating more resources to everyone for healing from and preventing future violence.

Kathleen Talking Military Families Red Army Faction

The Value of a Broken Heart

These are the remarks I shared during Yom Kippur services 5778 at Kolot Chayeinu at the request of the dear Rabbi Ellen Lippmann. This was part of the Unetaneh Tokef, the prayer that talks about the Book of Life and the sacred power of the day. The Rabbi and I discussed sharing my experience (with my wife Dana who is Jewish at my side) that we don’t control who lives or who dies, just how we respond and the need to do it in community.

There are many ways I could introduce myself (one of my favorite ways to introduce myself is as Dana Schneider’s wife), but I have an assignment from the Rabbi I take very seriously. So I’m going to tell you that she asked me to talk about my broken heart.

I was born and raised in Queens, with a fairly ordinary life as a child in NYC in the 70s and 80s. Which is to say: I grew up eating the trio of the best NYC foods: American Chinese food, pizza and bagels. And I was taught to be wary of strangers and empty streets at night. And to be afraid of the Soviets, since this was during the Cold War.

I was also taught to be afraid of change. My parents told me that people were trying to re-arrange things that were just fine they way they were: the way that we all talked about race, gender and religious differences. They said that everyone would have to just learn to get used to the way things had always been, and stop trying to mess with the order of things.

My big brother and big sister and I were raised by our mom and our grandparents. Sometimes there wasn’t enough money or food or heat and hot water. But we were going to make it, together. We fought and proved our toughness within the family as well as outside of it. My brother, five years older than me, used to sit on me and make me punch my own face with my hands. But the point of this was to make me tough, to ready me for what the world was going to dish out. Which came in handy when I started riding the subways to school alone when I was 13.

I had to learn that I could take care of myself, that I could hold my own against whatever came along. It was important that you not be a burden to others, and that you could protect what was yours. I mean, the Soviets could be coming any minute to destroy our families and our way of life.

We grew up hearing stories of how our family had defended our country in the past, and I personally was proud of my brother when he enlisted in the US Army on his 18th birthday. He finished almost a year of training and got stationed in Germany. He wrote to me about German beer and visiting Paris.

About two years into his service, on a very ordinary summer day when I was 15 years old and visiting with family in Texas, two kind people in uniform came to our apartment and knocked on the door. They told my mother that they couldn’t talk to her until she had someone there with her, and they would wait as long as it took. She called my grandparents to be with her, then called me that evening to tell me my brother was dead. It was decided that when I got home, we would bury him.

It took a little time for us to learn what had happened. My big brother was executed by a leftist political group in Germany as part of a plot to plant a bomb on a US Airbase, to kill whoever was near it. The deaths of my brother and two other people were meant to send a message about the evils of US imperialism, about our systems that reduce people down to less than human for our craven purposes.

Eddie had just turned 20 years old a couple months before he was killed. He was a Specialist in the US Army, close to the bottom of the chain of command. His body came home in a coffin draped in a US flag and we buried him in our neighborhood cemetery.

This seemed to confirm that everything I had ever heard about the evils of communism were true. These Germans were monsters and I prayed for them to be caught and punished, and no punishment would be enough. Someone explained to me that there was no death penalty in Germany, and I thought that was insane. I wanted them to die over and over again.

I would lay awake at night instead of sleeping, thinking about how much I missed him and how I would never speak to him again. And I didn’t know what to do without my big brother there to tell me how to be tough enough for this. There seemed to be no end to the anger I felt towards the people that killed him, but it left me cold and exhausted and empty inside.

I was determined to show my toughness by not talking about how upset I was. My friends would let me bring it up at random times, or maybe not talk about it at all. One time late at night I shocked myself by crying with one of my friends over the phone. It turned out that I wasn’t just angry, I was sad.

I wound up seeing a high school counselor listened to me, then explained to me that I wouldn’t be able to handle this on my own, and that it wasn’t any good to try to. He insisted I would have to talk about my feelings with people. That’s how I would figure out what was going on inside, and what I wanted to do about it.

My brother and sister and I had been through a lot when we were young, so I thought I knew how harsh the world was. But there was nothing to prepare me for someone killing him as an afterthought, and just leaving his body like he was nothing. And this had broken my heart.

But all the listening, all the ways people figured out being there for me in the years after his death, they let me transform my broken heart. I came to accept that I don’t write the story of the world and all of us in it, and neither did the people who killed my brother. Someone else bigger than us writes the scene, and then we make our choices in it. I decided that I wanted to not be like these people, and that would only happen if I learned to care more than they did.

When Rabbi Ellen first talked to me about the reading, all I could think of to say is yes, I get the message here. Some days are great and some days are good and some days we see injustice or cruelty up close. But as long as we’re alive, these days are still gifts.

We can’t know what the year will bring us, but we get to decide who we are inside, what parts of ourselves that we feed and tend to, and how we show up for each other. We decide who we think about, who we care about, who we pray for. We don’t have to accept the limits anyone tells us about whose stories we listen to or who we care about.

When your heart gets broken — and all our hearts do — at least it’s still beating. And that broken heart can guide us as we decide who we want to be. We can decide what to do about the things that break our heart: cruelty, injustice, and it turns out, sometimes there are things you can do. We can decide what needs to be changed and see what sort of better world we can make with all our wiser broken hearts listening, caring and working together.

It turns out that my broken heart works better than the “tough” one I had before. My broken heart means that I listen to people, and as much as I can, people with different stories than mine. I lost my sense of toughness, the one my brother tried so hard to impart to me, and I thank God that I did.

I feel awful for the price of this change, and it means I don’t get to share this experience with my brother. Years later, I learned about the horrible things that did happen to the people most likely responsible for his murder, and I was sad for them. I knew they were real live human beings, as connected to family and community as my brother. They were not monsters, and they weren’t innocent, and the main thing I had anything in common with them was Eddie’s murder. But I could see them as human, and I did not wish them harm. It was not who I could bear to be.

When I was young, my tough heart told me it was okay to shield myself from caring about other people’s problems too much. I had all sorts of ideas about how my brother and I would just sail over all sorts of problems together. We would never let bad things happen to us.

But we never had a adult life together. We got this story that was unimaginable to me, in which I’ve become a middle-aged woman who puts my time and energy to helping people change how we talk about race, gender and religious differences. I have built up my muscles for listening to people I disagree with, or who are different than me. I remind people that the political conflicts we think are intractable may have endings we didn’t expect, much as the Cold War did.

I would explain to my young brother that things generally are going to change, and we get to decide which direction we want to point it in. I point my desire for change towards a world where we listen to each other, tend to each others’ broken hearts and use these hearts for a world where we care about people not because they are like us, but because they are human beings.

With whatever the new year brings you, I hope mostly for you to stay connected to people throughout it. I hope for you to remember that we were put here to be here for each other so that none of us faces conflict or adversity alone. We aren’t burdens to each other when we need each other. And to remember that however your heart may be broken, when it’s connected with other hearts that have decided to listen and care — like so many people in this congregation have — it’s much more useful than a toughened heart.

Our broken hearts are hearts worth having.

It’s an honor to be part of the Kolot Chayeinu community, which maintains an active social justice commitment here in New York City. As a non-Jewish partner of a Jew, I’ve been included in a welcoming community where the need to take action for justice is such a central value.


Am I unsafe, uncomfortable, or somewhere unfamiliar?

I find that so far, my 2017 has had a lot of moments that are unfamiliar or uncomfortable. I’ve had to remind myself to keep thinking, because it’s important to distinguish those feelings from what is actually a problem: when I’ve crossed the line into a situation when I’m unsafe.

Why does this matter so much to me? Because I proudly call myself a U.S citizen and a social justice activist, and both of these roles require two qualities: a commitment to changing my country for the better, and also a commitment to changing myself for the better. For years I tried changing other people more than myself, before I landed on a balance of wanting to change both the outer world and my inner world.

It turns out that to have the impact I want to have, I have to not only be aware of the world, but my place in it, and my best opportunities to change it. When these opportunities present themselves, it’s essential that I be clear on my state of mind.  Especially because many of the best opportunities for change can involve being either:

Unfamiliar or  Uncomfortable.

But it’s easy to lump them in with feeling:


Many of us who are doing social change work use “unsafe” when I think we are describing what is unfamiliar or uncomfortable. And that makes changing ourselves or our communities or our country harder.

For example, when we’re exposed to stereotypes about a group of people we don’t see regularly, we may feel unsafe when actually, we’re just somewhere unfamiliar. Or when people say or do hurtful things, we are uncomfortable, but not necessarily unsafe.

Unsafe means that our minds move into fear mode and shut down. As so many important discussions about change are unfolding right now, I see people describe feeling unsafe, and become reactionary in their thinking and actions. But the skill-set of noticing and responding to what is unfamiliar or uncomfortable can actually be much more useful.


Okay, if you are alive and lucky enough not to have a boring life, unfamiliar things will happen all the time. We live in a time where human experience and change is happening at a pace probably never seen before — definitely not seen before in recorded history. But for many adults, unfamiliar is well… yucky. We don’t like it. We prefer what is known, we prefer what is familiar to us. Even sometimes, when things are actually improving, we can experience it as unfamiliar and therefore undesirable.

I’ve learned about this particular state of mind by being a student of the Alexander Technique, a practice of learning how to use my body well. I’m used to slouching so much that when I am not slouching, it almost feels like I’m leaning backward. But I’m not. If I look at in the mirror, I can see that I’m just standing up. Weird, because it feels unfamiliar.

As part of my study of Alexander Technique, I practice the quality of noticing that something is unfamiliar, and noticing without judgment. It’s not a question of whether it’s “good” or “bad” to slouch — there are times to slouch and times not to slouch. But slouching has become familiar, so when I’m not slouching, it can feel like something is wrong. Instead, I can notice that what I’m doing is either familiar or unfamiliar, and then decide what I actually want to be doing.

Unfamiliar is something that can come up often in the context of racism, because the places where our lives are segregated can mean that we are struggling internally with the unfamiliar when we encounter people who we have mostly learned about via stereotype. This happens for me sometimes when I don’t conform to someone’s stereotypes of who I should be as a Latina. It happens for me sometimes when I encounter people from other communities that I have not spent as much time around.


Things that are unfamiliar can also lead to feeling uncomfortable. For example, my wife is Jewish, and although I have taken many steps to know and understand Jewish culture, everyone once in a while she’ll point out a way that I talk about religion or spiritual practice in ways that is noticeably Christian (I was raised Catholic). When she points out to me that I’m saying something that might be rooted in anti-Semitism, that’s uncomfortable. Sometimes anti-Jewish oppression takes the form of acting like Jews don’t exist or are “a little odd.” These moments are very uncomfortable. I don’t like it when she points this out.

Sometimes I can notice the physical feeling of being uncomfortable. And of course, like most people, my thought is “How soon can I return to feeling comfortable?” But looking for the straight line — the quickest exit from an uncomfortable feeling — isn’t a real solution.

For this, I take a lesson from when I’m exercising and I start to get out of breath. Not being able to breathe feels very uncomfortable. But I’ve found if I can stay calm, and focus on noticing my breath go in and out, my breath will return and then I can think about what I want to do next. It can’t just be about ending the discomfort, though.

It comes back to thinking, “wait, what do I really want to be doing here?” Then pointing myself in that direction. Sometimes, it means bearing the uncomfortable feeling. That might feel like it is emotionally unsafe, but that doesn’t mean we have to avoid it at all costs.


And sometimes, our health or life might be in danger. For example, we’re in a car being operated by an intoxicated person, or someone is angry and armed.  There are times when the chances of someone getting seriously injured or killed actually exists.

I know that for me, there are situations that feel unsafe because they are places that I’ve been before. I’ve been there before, and bad things happened, so now I get extra fearful when those things might happen again. But just because I have that memory and that feeling doesn’t mean that the same thing is happening again.

The challenge for me is to pause and ask myself, “am I actually unsafe right now, or am I feeling unsafe because it reminds me of something?” This doesn’t have to take hours of reflection: I likely have to make a fairly quick decision. But it’s an important question to pause and ask myself. Then I can proceed more deliberately.

When I’m actually in physical danger, most often I’ve found that the best next move is to head towards people, especially people who can think clearly and accurately assess whether what’s happening is actually a result of being unfamiliar, uncomfortable or unsafe.  

Acting like these three states of mind are basically the same leads to unhelpful next steps that don’t address what is really going on. Responding as if what’s unsafe is “just” discomfort can be reckless, and responding to what’s uncomfortable as if our safety is at stake can be limiting, and lead to worse outcomes for everyone involved. Because as the postcard I found shows, where the magic happens is generally outside our comfort zone.

Over the years I’ve largely developed the habit of asking myself, “is this unfamiliar?” Instead of just falling into the groove of, “I don’t like this,” or the groove of “this is uncomfortable, so it must be unsafe.” I raise these distinctions here to encourage my friends and allies to work on this practice as well – for the sake of ourselves, our communities, and our movements. It’s more important than ever that we turn ourselves towards thoughtful, caring change, and not just change for the sake of being less uncomfortable.

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